Ethanol ?

[Jeff Klarich]

Is this the DurAlt and is this the only place to get it? http://www.saveonfuel.info/files/DurAltGas-DieselFlyerR10.pdf

I answered your question before I checked the website you posted Don. That's the company I'm talking about, I really don't know who all carries it I was just interested where I could get it in my area. Turns out the company is located 60 miles from me in Colorado Springs. The owner did tell me he has it a few stores in Denver and is expanding to others.

 

[HDDon]

Thanks Jeff.

 

[Billbo]

I have been reading how terrible 10% ethanol is and how it will ruin my Harleys for as long as I can remember. As I posted earlier and anyone can confirm with some research, these TC motors will run more efficiently on the lowest octane fuel that will not cause detonation.; don't care what the MoCo says. Both bikes run high performance motors, moderate compression, .600" lift cams, etc.; one is EFI and one is carbed; both make lots of HP and TQ on 10% ethanol fuel and one does in 87 octane.

I run 87-89 octane in both with no issues except one of the motors has CCP above 190psi and in the hottest months of July and August in south Texas, I may have to go to 93 octane to avoid heat related detonation on that bike. There is no non-ethanol fuel available in my riding area which covers most of south, central and west Texas; at least not that I have found. I run 10% ethanol, Shell, Exxon or Chevron; nothing else; never stop at the little podunk stations in the boonies where the fuel may not be "fresh"; run some MMO through every 1000 miles or so and always, always, dump in some Star Tron stabilizer after every ride. Having two bikes, it is not unusual for one to sit for weeks before getting ridden again. I have never had an issue with ethanol damage to carb, fuel lines, etc. (knock on wood). I don't worry about mileage as neither bikes score well in that category but that is a direct function of the modifications and how I ride them; mileage is consistent but probably not as good as most of you guys get but, like I said, doesn't bother me.

So, you guys will have to forgive me if I am not as alarmed as some of you may be about ethanol; it is here to stay. I am hoping though that we don't see 15% ethanol anytime soon; that would give me cause for concern.

thanks for your input DOLT. I agree with you - ethanol is here and we MUST use it since that's all thats offered at MOST Branded gas stations. And I too have been using it since it came out for the same reasons. I just hear horror stories of things going bad - fuel components including tanks, when using ethanol. My personal (bad) experience is with 2-cycle engines - they dont like it. I only am concerned about the 'long term' use and not knowing what (if any) damage may be occuring on the inside. Hummmm I wonder if air planes use ethanol fuels?

Thanks again, as most of us keep on using ethanol gas because that's all we can get!!

Bill

 

[Jeff Klarich]

I have been reading how terrible 10% ethanol is and how it will ruin my Harleys for as long as I can remember. As I posted earlier and anyone can confirm with some research, these TC motors will run more efficiently on the lowest octane fuel that will not cause detonation.; don't care what the MoCo says. Both bikes run high performance motors, moderate compression, .600" lift cams, etc.; one is EFI and one is carbed; both make lots of HP and TQ on 10% ethanol fuel and one does in 87 octane.



I run 87-89 octane in both with no issues except one of the motors has CCP above 190psi and in the hottest months of July and August in south Texas, I may have to go to 93 octane to avoid heat related detonation on that bike. There is no non-ethanol fuel available in my riding area which covers most of south, central and west Texas; at least not that I have found. I run 10% ethanol, Shell, Exxon or Chevron; nothing else; never stop at the little podunk stations in the boonies where the fuel may not be "fresh"; run some MMO through every 1000 miles or so and always, always, dump in some Star Tron stabilizer after every ride. Having two bikes, it is not unusual for one to sit for weeks before getting ridden again. I have never had an issue with ethanol damage to carb, fuel lines, etc. (knock on wood). I don't worry about mileage as neither bikes score well in that category but that is a direct function of the modifications and how I ride them; mileage is consistent but probably not as good as most of you guys get but, like I said, doesn't bother me.

So, you guys will have to forgive me if I am not as alarmed as some of you may be about ethanol; it is here to stay. I am hoping though that we don't see 15% ethanol anytime soon; that would give me cause for concern.[/QUOTE



Well I tried out your theory on running a lower octane and it may work well for your scoots but not mine. I filled her up with 87 octane this weekend and it pinged so bad I couldn't wait to get her home. My scoot is properly tuned (dynoed) 3 times to get it spot on. So the moral of the story is what works for 1 does not necessarily work for all.

 

[dbmg]

Well I tried out your theory on running a lower octane and it may work well for your scoots but not mine. I filled her up with 87 octane this weekend and it pinged so bad I couldn't wait to get her home. My scoot is properly tuned (dynoed) 3 times to get it spot on. So the moral of the story is what works for 1 does not necessarily work for all.

So you tried it and did not like it......:s In a pinch stop at a parts store and spend the money and get octane booster $$$$ or get another bottle of sea foam and add it to tank to increase octane. Jeff your bike is a thoroughbred not a old mule like mine it runs on anything though most of the time I used the highest octane available at gas station.

 

[Jeff Klarich]

So you tried it and did not like it......:s In a pinch stop at a parts store and spend the money and get octane booster $$$$ or get another bottle of sea foam and add it to tank to increase octane. Jeff your bike is a thoroughbred not a old mule like mine it runs on anything though most of the time I used the highest octane available at gas station.

91 Is the best we have in Colorado and that's what my scoot likes. I just wanted to try dolt's theory on running a lower octane to see if my scoot would tolerate it. Lessons learned, not all builds are created equal.:nosad

 

[dolt]

Well I tried out your theory on running a lower octane and it may work well for your scoots but not mine. I filled her up with 87 octane this weekend and it pinged so bad I couldn't wait to get her home. My scoot is properly tuned (dynoed) 3 times to get it spot on. So the moral of the story is what works for 1 does not necessarily work for all.

Jeff,
Just to be clear; what I posted is not a "theory". It is a fact that an air cooled vtwin motor will run more efficiently and cooler on the lowest octane fuel the motor will run on without detonation. Unfortunately, in your case, 91-93 octane must be the lowest octane fuel your motor will run on without detonation. I was not suggesting that everyone should start running 87 octane fuel but just letting others know that it is possible; sorry it didn't work in your case though.

Having said that, it would seem that if my 107" performance motor will run on 87 octane without issues, a similarly modified motor could also?? Could be that your ignition curve has too much timing dialed in? That is not uncommon with many tuners; they all seem to think that these motors like lots of advance and it's just not so. The 87 octane bike is also a carbed bike so I can't dial in air and fuel as you can on an EFI bike; perhaps your a bit lean in areas with the AFR? Do you have the dyno sheet? Have you checked AFR at partial throttle? The dyno sheet should show what happens when the throttle is whacked in 5th to chart for WOT. If the AFR goes lean when that happens, you may be able to address that in the tune.

I run a custom ignition map on my DTT and have a fairly conservative ignition curve but that doesn't keep the bike from making 120TQ.

I do get a bit of mild detonation, at least I think I do, it is hard to hear under throttle with a full face helmet. However, I think I detect a slight ping under certain loaded conditions in July and August when temps in south Texas are 100+. So, I do run 93 octane in the hot weather to avoid that condition.

 

[Jeff Klarich]

Jeff,
Just to be clear; what I posted is not a "theory". It is a fact that an air cooled vtwin motor will run more efficiently and cooler on the lowest octane fuel the motor will run on without detonation. Unfortunately, in your case, 91-93 octane must be the lowest octane fuel your motor will run on without detonation. I was not suggesting that everyone should start running 87 octane fuel but just letting others know that it is possible; sorry it didn't work in your case though.

Having said that, it would seem that if my 107" performance motor will run on 87 octane without issues, a similarly modified motor could also?? Could be that your ignition curve has too much timing dialed in? That is not uncommon with many tuners; they all seem to think that these motors like lots of advance and it's just not so. The 87 octane bike is also a carbed bike so I can't dial in air and fuel as you can on an EFI bike; perhaps your a bit lean in areas with the AFR? Do you have the dyno sheet? Have you checked AFR at partial throttle? The dyno sheet should show what happens when the throttle is whacked in 5th to chart for WOT. If the AFR goes lean when that happens, you may be able to address that in the tune.

I run a custom ignition map on my DTT and have a fairly conservative ignition curve but that doesn't keep the bike from making 120TQ.

I do get a bit of mild detonation, at least I think I do, it is hard to hear under throttle with a full face helmet. However, I think I detect a slight ping under certain loaded conditions in July and August when temps in south Texas are 100+. So, I do run 93 octane in the hot weather to avoid that condition.

I agree with you that a stock twin v will run good on a lower octane fuel but in my case mine is far from stock. I just wanted to see if mine would run without pinging as you stated yours does, In my case it would not. Yes mine had to much timing so I had the correct amount taken away and it runs very strong. I wasn't questioning your results, I was just testing mine to see with my build I could produce the same results. Unfortunately I could not, that's why I said not all builds are created equal.

 

[Jack Klarich]

My stage1 Streetbob runs strong on 89 Alcohol free gas with no pinging I never have believed the MOCO in saying to run premium all the time, I am old school and feeding your engine high octane all the time spoils the child IMO

 

[Jeff Klarich]

My stage1 Streetbob runs strong on 89 Alcohol free gas with no pinging I never have believed the MOCO in saying to run premium all the time, I am old school and feeding your engine high octane all the time spoils the child IMO

I wish I could find alcohol free out here, no such luck. I know back in MN. I ran it and she seemed to really like it.