Oil pressure/synthetic oil

[wilks3]

The oil filter laying on its side will drain out from center down into engine, the rest of oil thats around (outside) of the filter will seep thru and some will also go into engine. The nature of the beast.
20W50 oil flows like 20wt oil at a measured temp standard, as oil heats up, polymers expand to form oil film like 50wt oil. Engine oil at standard temp will flow,have shear capacity and react like 50wt oil, even though it appears thin.
To me if oil pump is good, not much oil will go backwards thru pump from oil filter.
Also, cold temps do weird things to machines. Start'er up and let idle a couple of minutes longer to let oil get fully circulated and alittle warmed up first before riding bike.
wilks3

 

[tkeswede]

This is what is happening to my 09 as well. It seems if I don't ride it everyday it drains down and ticks some while it warms up. I am on my second synthic oil change 20w50 amsoil. I just let it warm up and it seems to be fine. Runs great and has over 32#'s pressure, wither it is a cold day or hot day.

 

[CalgaryBikeBum]

This is what is happening to my 09 as well. It seems if I don't ride it everyday it drains down and ticks some while it warms up. I am on my second synthic oil change 20w50 amsoil. I just let it warm up and it seems to be fine. Runs great and has over 32#'s pressure, wither it is a cold day or hot day.

tkeswede your noise sounds like a lifter that is bleeding down when cold and taking a bit of time to pump up. Thus the ticking sound . I have had this problem. If you listen carefully with a screwdriver or Stethoscope (cheap at tool store) you will hear which lifter has problem. Then you can decide if you want to fix it or live with it. My two cents !!

 

[89 FXRS]

You are probably right on the time it has set..

The 20 W weight and the 50/60 are just like said, the 20 keeps at a 20 W = to the point the 50 or 60 weight oil would become a 20W oil after heated...

so the 20W on each oil is always the same until it also gets Over Hot..(?)
the 60 will stay a 20 w for a little longer and more Heat.. before it thins out to Less W then a 20 W..

signed....BUBBIE

Have you tried redline shockproof heavy in the tranny? :bigsmiley16:

I use it and have never ever,,,, that is Never Ever had ANY metal on my magnetic plug when changed after Many Miles....(20,000)

As a matter of fact heavy shockproof has been in it from the first week that I owned it - and I bought it new - I even use redline in my primary - I think that's the best stuff around IMHO - and same here no metal at all on the tranny plug 36,000+ - thanks BUBB

 

[BluesFan]

I am under the impression that HDs run dry sump, I'm not positive how that affects start up oil pressure, even if the oil bag drains to the sump.

But the viscosities, I can help with.

Viscosities of oils are measured at 2 temps.

40C and 100C. (104F and 212F)

With that information on an oil, a viscosity index can be calculated, higher is better. From that, one can know the viscosity at any operating temperature.

A multi grade oil therefore gives values cold and hot. Those being relative and, of course, 40C and 100C.

A 20W-50 is a SAE 20 at 40C and SAE 50 at 100C

SAE values have a much broader range than industrial oils, btw. When I spec a viscosity, I get it within a much narrower range than an auto oil can provide.

So, back to our generic 20W-50.

At startup, say 40F visc = 175 CsT (CentiStokes, the real measurement of viscosity)

At 100C, it is NOT the same as a 20W cold. It is 18.8 Cst. Quite a drop, but just fine.

For comparison, a 10w-30 is 69.8 and 10.4 Cst.

Also, remember that gear lubes are NOT on the same scale as motor oils. A 75 gear oil is actually maxxed out at the lower half of the 20 motor oil range!

As to what that nice little molecule that expands under heat gets you over a straight oil? About a 15-20% increase in visc. at operating temp

 

[horizonchaser]

My understanding of multi weight oil is thus: whether Harley oil, Mobil 1 or Red Line, the 20 part indicates viscosity when cold. (I don't know the actual temp for certification) Any oil rated 20 when cold will flow about the same, no thicker than a straight 20 wt. oil at that temp. The 50 or 60 part is for when the oil is hot, again, I don't know the certification temp. When hot, the oil will get no thinner than a straight weight of the same rating at that temp. Both of your oils have the same cold rating so they should perform similarly. If, in previous years, your machine sat for this long between starts and the pressure came up faster, the anti drain back valve on the filter seems the easiest and cheapest to replace (new filter) and check for improvement. Any other changes to your storage procedure? Is it on a jack sitting vertically this year and was it on the jiffy stand in previous years, or vise versa? Intuitively I would guess that the depth of the oil at the pickup tube would influence how soon the oil starts to circulate. Not having had the crank case apart, I don't know the set up, if storing vertically is different from an oil standpoint than storing on the jiffy stand. My scooter only seems to take as long as yours on the first start after an oil change, hope it is nothing serious/expensive.

Nice self explanitory answer btsom. You kept it simple and clear for guys like me!

 

[BUBBIE]

My understanding of multi weight oil is thus:

Nice self explanitory answer btsom. You kept it simple and clear for guys like me!

Yes that Was Excellent!

Just thought I would toss this out; When you see a post that stands out and another way to THANK that person for the post IS to click on the Scales of Justice (little cloud looking thing on His post) "Pop Up" then you can say agree and put in a kind word OR not ? and I usually sign my name..

This Adds to their point system and I guess take away? IF they are Naughty before or after Christmas,,,,, It may help that member when a moderator decides to Spank that member..... More points you might get Just warned....

Thread High-Jacked again by

signed....BUBBIE

 

[Joyflyin]

Nice job BluesFan. You made that so easy that even I understand it now. Thanks for sharing that info with us.

 

[CropdusterDoug]

this is my first winter that I've had synthetic oil in my roadglide(redline 20/60) I live in California so it doesn't get nearly as cold as some places back east or up in Canada - however with the rainny season I haven't started the bike up for a couple of weeks and today was the second time I noticed that when I first start the bike up after not starting it for a week or more that it shows no oil pressure for the first 4 to 7 seconds - I never noticed this before when using regular 20/50 Harley oil, nor did I notice it any other time of the year while using synthetic - is this a normal characteristic of synthetic oil, and is there anything to be concerned about? My guess is that synthetic oil is so much more slick than the regular stuff that it drains down to the cases faster. Also that maybe I should run 20/50 in the winter time???

Synthetic oils were originally designed for jet engines flying in very cold temperatures. I know, I was an Air Force jet engine mechanic. I also worked on reciprocating engines too. Synthetics have longer molecular chains, afford better lubrication because it takes longer for those longer chains to fracture, isn't affected by interaction of acids with the mineral oils, and is resistant to thickening. I suppose that for more profits, the synthetic oils were sold for use in reciprocating engines. Yes, synthetic oils do afford better lubrication, but one thing that synthetic oils do that mineral oils don't, is that synthetics don't stick to the parts. Synthetics will slowly completely gravitate to the lowest part of the engine after two or three weeks. That means if you park your bike (or car) for long periods, your first start will be a "dry" start until the oil pressure is pumped up. All of those "dry" starts add up to engine wear. After making such a start, don't gun your engine. Just let it idle until oil pressure appears on the gauge first. It will save your rod bearings and journals from hammering.

Some reciprocating airplane engines avoid the problem of dry starts by having a pre-oiler installed. When the engine is running, oils is stored in a pressure accumulator with a one-way valve to store that pressure after the engine is turned off. When the engine is ready to be restarted, the pilot triggers a switch allowing that saved oil pressure to flood the oil galleries. After a few seconds, the pilot cranks the pre-oiled engine. It would be nice if somebody could design such a pressure accumulator for a Harley. It could fit right under the seat. Wish I had the money to develop that. Harley Davidson could easily do that.

My recommendation for people who go for long periods between engine use is to use mineral oils. The mineral oils will keep the inside of your engine coated with at least a thin film of oil.

 

[89 FXRS]

Synthetic oils were originally designed for jet engines flying in very cold temperatures. I know, I was an Air Force jet engine mechanic. I also worked on reciprocating engines too. Synthetics have longer molecular chains, afford better lubrication because it takes longer for those longer chains to fracture, isn't affected by interaction of acids with the mineral oils, and is resistant to thickening. I suppose that for more profits, the synthetic oils were sold for use in reciprocating engines. Yes, synthetic oils do afford better lubrication, but one thing that synthetic oils do that mineral oils don't, is that synthetics don't stick to the parts. Synthetics will slowly completely gravitate to the lowest part of the engine after two or three weeks. That means if you park your bike (or car) for long periods, your first start will be a "dry" start until the oil pressure is pumped up. All of those "dry" starts add up to engine wear. After making such a start, don't gun your engine. Just let it idle until oil pressure appears on the gauge first. It will save your rod bearings and journals from hammering.

Some reciprocating airplane engines avoid the problem of dry starts by having a pre-oiler installed. When the engine is running, oils is stored in a pressure accumulator with a one-way valve to store that pressure after the engine is turned off. When the engine is ready to be restarted, the pilot triggers a switch allowing that saved oil pressure to flood the oil galleries. After a few seconds, the pilot cranks the pre-oiled engine. It would be nice if somebody could design such a pressure accumulator for a Harley. It could fit right under the seat. Wish I had the money to develop that. Harley Davidson could easily do that.

My recommendation for people who go for long periods between engine use is to use mineral oils. The mineral oils will keep the inside of your engine coated with at least a thin film of oil.

Thanks - CropdusterDoug that was what I was guessing, but now know for sure - maybe I'll just start it up once a week and let it run for a couple of minutes - I like the oil pressure that the 20/60 gives and the extra protection when it gets hot - starting it up for a few minutes is worth the trade off to me.