First of all I don't know the answer to your question .That being said ,I bought a 2014 flhxs which came with after market, exhaust ,air filter ,and HD tuner [orange box ] with a flash tune [dino to be done at 1000 mi ] .With the flash tune the first 1000 mi ,the bike ran ok but had a lot of decal popping .When I tried to have something done they said to just ride it out until the 1000 mi was up I asked about putting a stock filter back on , they just said no .After the dino it ran good .Four hundred mi later I carried it back to have higher compression pistons, new heads ,new cam ,and a dino tune [dino after another 1000 mi ] although the flash tune after the motor work real good ,was tempted not to get the second dino tune, as it turned out I'm glad that I did . All most forgot my breather wouldn't fit the new 58 something intake ,so 3 maybe 4 hundred more for new breather . I just wouldn't trust a flash tune ,one works ok ,another won't .As you can see I threw away a lot of money , doing and redoing ,but I never learned anything I didn't pay for. At the least you are asking for advice, I just jumped in head first. Good luck .
96 0r 103 W Hi-output cams
- Thread starter propflux01
- Start date
propflux01, No disrespect intended to you, we're just trying to figure out the best bang for your buck. I learn new things here every day by reading posts and I see that's what you are trying to do as well. Having said that I detect by your posts funds may be a issue right now and if that's the case join the crowd. I suggest you build on what you already have and add more as funds become available. Andrews 48 cams, adjustable push rods and some decent head work will get you going in the right direction. Those 3 things along with what you already have will not break the bank. (maybe a good winter project) Add a good dyno to dial everything in and I think you'll have a new scoot under you. JMHO.:s
dolt
Well-Known Member
Well, based on your comment that you want "a little more boost", the Andrews 48 and a follow up dyno tune was suggested as the solution. That's not JMHO and if you contact any one of the porters/builders Bodeen listed in his post #3 you will find that they share the opinion that the 48 is the best or at worst, one of the best cam sets for a bolt in cam only upgrade.
WRT your question about the modified cams for the '15 models you should know that because of the larger bore of a 103" motor and the added compression is what you are feeling when riding a 2015 model. Installing that cam in a 96" motor will not produce the seat of the pants response that you experienced with the 2015 model. As a matter of fact, the seat of the pants feel could be just the opposite. I don't know the profile of the "Rushmore" cam but will find it so I can speak more intelligently on the subject. But, I can tell you with certainty that the results you are seeking are achievable with an aftermarket cam, the SE255 or even the SE204 but not with the Rushmore cam. You were also mis-informed about the 48 cam profile, it is completely different from the 21 cam profile; much more than a "21 on stilts".
You continue to refer to "maps" but the point has been made that there are no factory maps other than the Stage uploads which do nothing more than add a bit of fuel and, in some cases, increase the rev limit from 5800 to 6000 rpms. Additionally, the factory uploads, or flashes, are designed to work with OEM equipment, i.e., exhaust and intake. Your Stage I components are aftermarket so the Stage I flash is not compatible with your equipment and I am surprised that you don't have some decel popping.
We need to clear up whether you have the SERT or the SEST; I am thinking you have the SEST as I don't recall ever seeing a SERT with an orang box; mine is black. However, if you do have the SERT, which has been succeeded by the TTS Mastertune, there are compatible maps on the TTS website that you could download and install after installing the 48 or whatever cam you choose. While there may be some driveability issue such as some decel pop, rough idle, poor fuel economy, etc., you can run such a map without damaging the motor or any systems. However, I would suggest a dyno tune ASAP to optimize performance and fuel economy. I see that you are in Akansas? Recently, on my advice, one of your kinsmen installed a Stage IV 103 kit on his new Breakout and rode from Arkansas to my neck of the woods to get his bike tuned by one of the best in the country. A bit of a ride and he did have to stay over night but when it was done, he was all grins and found the trip and the expense worth it. There is a tuner in Louisana, forget the name but I will get if for you that may be an option. Believe me, the right tune is everything; you won't believe the difference it will make. If you have the SEST, the TTS maps may be compatible with the SEST but I am not sure.
If budget is an issue, a set of 48 cams, SE adjustable pushrods, new lifters if more than 25K miles on your current lifters and a dyno tune will achieve the results you are looking for and it sounds like you are capable of taking that on as a DIY project with minimal down time. When the "new" wears off, increasing displacement to 103" or 107", head work and a different cam set will take things to another level.:hii
propflux01
Active Member
Yes, I understand the 48 advice. When I said the 48's are basically a '21 on stilts" (prolly more like 26's) that is what I have gotten on my research of the 48 and its reviews on various google searches. The main reason I kind of shyed away is I plan to keep this bike till either it or myself dies off. That being said, I tend to think most higher lift cams (on any engine) tend to wear valve guides faster and didnt want to have to tear into it 25K down the road to do this. Also, after using the 21's in my other bike, I did not like the excessively loud intake "Thock" noise I got under a load. I was worried the 48 would be as loud as the 21 due to its overlap. The specs I have found on the HO cam are 3btdc/30 and 43btdc /10 duration being 213/233. On the 48, I got 13btdc/29 and 43btdc/15 with a lift of 548. the HO cam has less lift. So I based the HO cam on a somewhat 'milder' 48 with little to no "Thock" due to the less overlap. This was my initial thinking on using the rushmore cams. the 255, while i am sure have been used sucessfully, are still a high lift and brings me back to teh load on the guides, and those nasty postings about hard starting and such even after a 'good tune' was applied.
AS for maps, my nomenclature may be incorrect, but I consider any "flash" or "download" to be considered a form of map. I am sorry for any confusion on that part.
As for the "orange box" I will open it up when I get home, snap a pic and post it here when I get home. I figure you may then know by looking at it what it actually is.
I have done some basic research on Tunners/dyno places around here and found one in the central area, but I am trying to figure if they are worth thier salt for this. if i replace teh cams, new lifters would be installed regardless. I understand if going with andrews, would using stock pushrods not work even though the andrews are only .020 smaller base circle? I thought maybe the lifters would overcome this shorter length regardless?
I hope this helps clear up things alittle and again thatnk all of you who have been responding. Tim
AS for maps, my nomenclature may be incorrect, but I consider any "flash" or "download" to be considered a form of map. I am sorry for any confusion on that part.
As for the "orange box" I will open it up when I get home, snap a pic and post it here when I get home. I figure you may then know by looking at it what it actually is.
I have done some basic research on Tunners/dyno places around here and found one in the central area, but I am trying to figure if they are worth thier salt for this. if i replace teh cams, new lifters would be installed regardless. I understand if going with andrews, would using stock pushrods not work even though the andrews are only .020 smaller base circle? I thought maybe the lifters would overcome this shorter length regardless?
I hope this helps clear up things alittle and again thatnk all of you who have been responding. Tim
dolt, my SERT is orange.
propflux01
Active Member
Here is the orange box:
tourbox
Senior Member
You have the SEPST not the SERT. HD sells a CD to place on a lap top for tuning yourself. There is also a CD for training/explanation. The one for the lap top has a pretty good help section also. You will also need cords for the unit if doing yourself. You can pick different maps(flash/download) that match your engine changes or that are a close match. You can then go in make changes,save, re-map. You can also ride and collect data then download to your lap top to see what's going on. You can also Smart Tune with it.
I have used it but was not real efficient with it. I was using it on an '06 Ultra but only had a stage 1 set up. I did notice some power changes though. There was a thread on here a couple years back by someone doing the Smart Tune. You may want to check in Self Help section for it.
tourbox
I have used it but was not real efficient with it. I was using it on an '06 Ultra but only had a stage 1 set up. I did notice some power changes though. There was a thread on here a couple years back by someone doing the Smart Tune. You may want to check in Self Help section for it.
tourbox
dolt
Well-Known Member
Tourbox has you covered on the SEPST; still recommend a dyno tune as the only way to dial in the motor. I am not familiar with the SEPST map selection so I can't say how easy/difficult it would be to find a map close to your configuration. I have not used the SEPST but understand that the Smart Tune feature is pretty handy; still no substitute for a proper dyno tune. Post the names of the tuners/shops you are looking at. I have a pretty extensive list of competent tuners around the country; maybe one of your guys is on the list.:s
No need to worry about valve guides needing replacing at 25K miles unless you start running cams with lift in excess of .625". Cams with that much lift are not worth installing without head work and when the heads are worked, bronze/manganese guides should be installed to address the wear issue. Valve train geometry isn't really affected until you get into serious hi-lift cams.
The EPA is the reason for the short duration of the HO cams; they will make torque early and fade away early. I have not heard of anyone complaining about the "thock" noise with the 48 cams but have read that some experience that noise with the 57 cams. Keep in mind what I previously posted regarding the HO cams. Any cam you choose for the upgrade will perform differently in a 103" motor than a 96" motor because of the compression boost. Lots of guys install cams and have headwork done and attribute 100% of the improvement in performance on the cam when actually the increase in compression is responsible for at least 50% of the improvement. Your OEM cam has an intake close of 30*; same as the HO cam, so there won't be an increase in CCP or corrected compression which, as I have pointed out, would be responsible for much of any increase in performance; you need that CCP boost. I suggest you play around with a compression calculator; there is a good one on the BigBoyz website, and see how the intake valve close timing affects CCP and corrected CR; static CR is just a number and means nothing; the motor never sees static CR. A good target is 9.3 corrected and a CCP of about 190psi. That is why the 255 would be a better choice; it has an intake close of 25*. With stock heads, any lift above .550" isn't much benefit; that's where the head head flow flat lines. The valve may still be open but not much is happening.
You can take a chance with the OEM push rods and the .020" smaller base circle; just .010" difference in valve train stack up height. However, factory tolerances vary from motor to motor and you may find that the .010" introduces some lash in the valve train at certain rpms but, then again, maybe not; it's a crap shoot. If the valve train is noisy with the OEM pushrods, you can always cut them out and install adjustables.:hii
No need to worry about valve guides needing replacing at 25K miles unless you start running cams with lift in excess of .625". Cams with that much lift are not worth installing without head work and when the heads are worked, bronze/manganese guides should be installed to address the wear issue. Valve train geometry isn't really affected until you get into serious hi-lift cams.
The EPA is the reason for the short duration of the HO cams; they will make torque early and fade away early. I have not heard of anyone complaining about the "thock" noise with the 48 cams but have read that some experience that noise with the 57 cams. Keep in mind what I previously posted regarding the HO cams. Any cam you choose for the upgrade will perform differently in a 103" motor than a 96" motor because of the compression boost. Lots of guys install cams and have headwork done and attribute 100% of the improvement in performance on the cam when actually the increase in compression is responsible for at least 50% of the improvement. Your OEM cam has an intake close of 30*; same as the HO cam, so there won't be an increase in CCP or corrected compression which, as I have pointed out, would be responsible for much of any increase in performance; you need that CCP boost. I suggest you play around with a compression calculator; there is a good one on the BigBoyz website, and see how the intake valve close timing affects CCP and corrected CR; static CR is just a number and means nothing; the motor never sees static CR. A good target is 9.3 corrected and a CCP of about 190psi. That is why the 255 would be a better choice; it has an intake close of 25*. With stock heads, any lift above .550" isn't much benefit; that's where the head head flow flat lines. The valve may still be open but not much is happening.
You can take a chance with the OEM push rods and the .020" smaller base circle; just .010" difference in valve train stack up height. However, factory tolerances vary from motor to motor and you may find that the .010" introduces some lash in the valve train at certain rpms but, then again, maybe not; it's a crap shoot. If the valve train is noisy with the OEM pushrods, you can always cut them out and install adjustables.:hii
propflux01
Active Member
Sounds like some good advice then. I have been doing research on the SEPST and ordered a cable for it. This is probably going to be my winter project (read: a Couple months from now) and will probably go with the 48's. The Dyno/tuner place is Rodneys Cycle House in Little Rock. I am still trying to find out if it's a good place to go, He has been there for years but didn't know he did Dyno work. I figure I will go with adjustables and definately a lifter replacement.