96 vs 103.

[tsp45acp]

While my 103 stage 1 RK is in the shop for the SE255's & 50K service, I've ridden my wife's Cross Bones several times. It's stock and only has 600 miles on it (not broke in fully yet). It will get down the road quite nicely, but it's not even close to what my 103 is capable of right now with only the stage 1 on it. I know it's apples to oranges for a comparison, but that's kinda what this thread is comparing....96 vs. 103. JMO. Tracy

OK! Got it back from the stealership today. WOW! Seat of the pants difference is tremendous.


Here's the #'s:
Stage 1: Max Power=69.37 Max Torque=89.03
Stage 2: Max Power=81.34 Max Torque=98.34
Totals: Max Power=11.97 increase Max Torque=9.31 increase


I was hoping for 100 torque, but this will do.

Before the 255's, it would run pretty good, but when you got up to 4500 rpm, you knew it was getting near the end. Without trying, it just seemed to want to run past 4500 rpm and didn't seem to lose any "umph". My max redline is still 5500 rpm's. 1st gear used to redline @ 42mph, 2cnd @ 62mph, and 3rd @ 92 mph, (but we won't go any further .)

Today on the way home, I got on it pretty good and 1st redlined @ 45-48 mph, 2cnd @ 65-70. I'll get some better #'s as time goes on, But I couldn't be happier.


My experience has been that the best bang for your buck is high flow air filter, Power Commander (or other fuel tuner), and cams (to match your riding style I.E. low to mid range torque cam or high rpm horse power cams. Tracy

 

[tsp45acp]

It occurred to me last week that the 255 cams I had put in are listed in the SE catalog as "the ultimate in torque cams". Looking at "my#'s" after the install, I ended up with higher HP gains than torque gains (9 torque, 11 HP). Does this mean that the stock 103 cams are pretty anemic? I thought it ran pretty good, but to advertise as "torque cams" and get ultimately more HP gains is interesting to me to say the least.



Anybody got any views or opinions on this?





As a side note, last Sun, my wife and I (her on her Cross Bones) went for a short (67 mile one way) highway ride. Gas mileage was 41.3 mpg (I got on it and opened it up a couple of times :s). The best I have ever gotten out of this bike was 42.0 mpg. I'm wondering if my mpg will be better than before since these cams put my power down in my cruising range...2K to 3K rpms. Anybody else notice an increase in their gas mileage? I haven't taken any more "highway" rides, just wondering what others are getting...... Sorry for the hijack. Tracy

 

[spot]

pick the 103 and put a S&S cam kit in it. that really helped my '09 trike.lb

 

[Jim B.]

My neighbor and I both have '09 Road Glides. Both started with 96 engines but my neighbor put in the HD big bore kit to increase the displacement to 103. I've ridden both of them. The only difference I noticed with the 103 was not having to shift from 6th to 5th going up a big hill near where we live. Oh, and my neighbor complains that he get slightly less miles per gallon than I do.

 

[Hoople]

Got it back from the stealership today.

My max redline is still 5500 rpm's.

My experience has been that the best bang for your buck is Power Commander (or other fueler)

Just was wondering.... You used the word stealership so my guess is you had the work done by a HD dealership and not an indy. You say your redline is still 5500 RPM which indicates the firmware in the ECM is still stock. You also indicate you may be using a Power Commander instead of SE downloads. But would the dealership actually do what is required to match the power commander to the new cams? Wouldn't that be up to the end-user? I just don't see a HD dealership (Indy might) making changes to a power commander unless you have some kind of wide band self adaptive system...

I may be wrong but I am thinking they possibly did the hardware part and put it on a dyno to get some numbers but you still need to do the software part to optimize your A/F ratio. (maybe ?) Or are you wide band?

 

[tsp45acp]

Just was wondering.... You used the word stealership so my guess is you had the work done by a HD dealership and not an indy. You say your redline is still 5500 RPM which indicates the firmware in the ECM is still stock. You also indicate you may be using a Power Commander instead of SE downloads. But would the dealership actually do what is required to match the power commander to the new cams? Wouldn't that be up to the end-user? I just don't see a HD dealership (Indy might) making changes to a power commander unless you have some kind of wide band self adaptive system...

I may be wrong but I am thinking they possibly did the hardware part and put it on a dyno to get some numbers but you still need to do the software part to optimize your A/F ratio. (maybe ?) Or are you wide band?

Not really sure what you mean by the "wide band" or what is involved in "setting up" the engine properly, but looking at the air/fuel graph, it starts out at about 15-1 and stays there for approx 1/4 of the run. Then it dips down quickly to under 14-1 (but above the dotted line of 13-1) till near the very end, then dips to under 13 but above 12-1 for the remainder.

As far as the 5500 redline"... I specifically asked them to leave it here. Parts guy (who races and builds HD motors on the side) suggested this. He told me that stock cast pistons (which is apparently what I have) don't last long/do well with the high rpms in these longer stroke motors. Since my bike already has 50K miles and HP & torque are still above stock #'s at 5500 rpms, I didn't feel the need to stretch this motor's limits any further. Except for a very few intended redline shifts, I prob haven't redlined this motor more than 10 times in the 10 months I've owned it. I just didn't see the need to push it further if I don't use that rpm range anyway.

I do have a Power Commander 3 (w/usb port). I didn't ask, but I'd like to think they used this to help get the air/fuel mixture at different rpm's set properly. I also specified that I wanted it to be a "easy winter start" since I ride year round in all temps.

Hope this is what you're asking about.

Still kinda impressed that the SE catalog quotes these cams (SE 255) as being "torque" cams, yet I got more HP than torque in overall gains: 11 HP, 9 Torque. Does this mean the stock cams were pretty anemic or were the stock cams pretty good on the torque side, but low on the HP side? Tracy

 

[BUBBIE]

Tracy,
Take a look at the Stock Numbers on the Stock cams....

The LIFT is .484 on the stock and .550 on the SE 255 cams.

Then Look at the intake Close as the stock is @ 30* and the 255's are at 25*... That is a Major difference to develop Low End Torque....

Now If you raised All the SE cam numbers to the Higher Side like intake close to 36* or 40* your powder band would not be on low end torque.... You would also Need More compression to MAKE low end power...

At 25* intake close Your Motor Makes More Power in Torque and AT Lower RPM... Closing the intake Earlier Makes MORE compression and Moving OUT the intake Close makes Less compression, Higher RPM Needed to develop Torque and Power ... so power and torque are lower IF you don't RAISE the compression in the cylds.Like going 103 from 96 in. or higher compression pistons... then the later closing intake will Make More HP than Torque... But added compression is a must or you will have a Slow to Develop Power Air Box. (motor)

If you raise the compression using the SE cam by it's self (which it Does) and did nothing else to the motor, It would Develop More Low End torque(which it does with the 255's)...
IF the cranking pressure goes up to 195-200 lbs or More, A Hard starting motor requiring High Octane Fuel would be required... Even with Pressure Relief Valves that type of CCP over 200lbs (215#) would destroy the motor Early on in life for a streetable bike...

I have built a 95" with High CCP and had to make Many changes in that motor to run it as a daily rider...$$$$$$

The LOW Torque on HD motors is what is needed in my book on the heavier touring bikes and going the Other way Getting HP on the lighter bikes..


signed....BUBBIE

 

[flh canuck]

OK! Got it back from the stealership today. WOW! Seat of the pants difference is tremendous.


Here's the #'s:
Stage 1: Max Power=69.37 Max Torque=89.03
Stage 2: Max Power=81.34 Max Torque=98.34
Totals: Max Power=11.97 increase Max Torque=9.31 increase


I was hoping for 100 torque, but this will do.

I think you might have some additional power still left on the table.

I went with a Screamin Eagle Pro Super Tuner after installing my Stage 2 103" kit.

I initially tuned it myself and thought it was pulling pretty good compared to the previous 96" build. Was running a bit hot so I decided to bite the bullet and spend the money on a proper dyno tune.

After getting it tuned on the dyno by Jarz Performance, I ended up with 91 hp and 108 ft lbs of torque. (up from 83 hp and 93 ft lbs of torque with my tune.)

Might be worth finding a good tuner with a dyno cause sounds like your engine is running a bit on the lean side, especially if lower rpm numbers are approaching 15 to 1 afr.

I don't know about the power commander but with the SEPST you can set your rev limiter to whatever you want. I think you were smart to leave your limit at 5500 rpm, especially with the SE255 cam. Higher rpms just means more stress on the internals without any further gains in power.

The stock cam used in the power pack 103" is the same cam used in the 96". Anemic would be a good description.

That being said, my present 2008 Electraglide is the fourth HD I have owned over many years but the first one I have modified beyond the basic stage one.

I was always pretty happy with the stock power output because I had no idea how much of a difference a few more cubes, a decent camshaft (SE255 in this case) and good tune could make.

Now I know better and there ain't no goin back......

 

[Hoople]

I didn't ask, but I'd like to think they used this to help get the air/fuel mixture at different rpm's set properly.

My main question/concern was if a HD dealership would actually take it upon themselves to start adjusting a non-HD product to get your A/F ratios correct. Unless they sell, support and are very familiar with Power Commanders products at your dealership, I can't see them downloading you a new map from the Power Commander site.

I personally would not want any A/F ratio's in the 14's during a Wide Open Throttle pull. It's really very important to find out exactly what was changed (if anything) to your PC mapping.

 

[ShammyDBones]

Well it depends on what type of riding your doing, If most of your riding is solo, I would recommend going with the 96' and the stage 1 like some of the other members said. If your doing more of the tandem riding the larger engine may be a plus. especially in traffic, the larger the engine the faster you get around the trucks and other vehicles. Honestly though, our opinions aren't as important as how the bike feels to you. Test drive them both, and make your decision then. That being said I have a fatboy with the 96' and I'm saving up to do some engine upgrades. My biggest problem is I have to decide whether I want the 107' or the 113'.