Pesky oil leak on '03 UC

[R_W_B]

I think I may have figured out the answer to my above question of why they tell you to adjust out half of the preload they designed. I know that hydraulic lifters will bleed down two ways. A small amount bleeds out the side holes that also lubes the walls of lifter bores.

The rest of the bleed down occurs on the relax (back end of the cam lobe) when the bottom check valve doesn't have the upward pressure on it. (these 2 are not quite the same scenarios as "waiting" on a slow bleed down after adjusting the pushrods)

Since air cooled non overhead cam engines have so much expansion, the additional preload distance of the lifter piston spring is needed. Sooo . . I'm thinking that when the specs say to adjust halfway into the preload, that this is possibly needed because that will cover the slack in the preload better when the engine first cranks up and is cooler.

Then as the engine heats up and the jugs start to expand etc, I'm thinking more of this preload (that was previously adjusted out) will then expand as the bottom check valve allows more oil in (on each back side of the cam) as the slack in the valve train increases due to the expansion.

Anyhow that's kinda what I was thinking last night wondering about it. Any comments of enlightenments ?

 

[TQuentin1]

I just pulled 4 "B" lifters apart and check internal travel. Numbers I have from this set are as follows.

.190
.192
.196
.195

From what we have seen .200 on avg is the norm. I have not seen that much travel
Provided a cam in use does not have ramps that are creating noise we do not see any issue with setting depression at .100-.110. Many times noise from the quick install is the pushrod is hitting the tube.

This is very troubling. I can NOT find the reference source I had for the 0.250" piston travel on the lifters. And in looking for it, I see a bunch of references indicating it to be approx. 0.200" (although I have not found a technical engineering drawing showing this dimension).

As I said above, my PRs are 24tpi. I adjusted them 3 turns and 2 flats, or 20 flats. This is 0.139". If I was going to adjust them 0.100" out, that would be about 2 turns and 3 flats (2.5 turns). It is actually about 0.104".

So what I think I am going to do is open up all the PR covers and collapse the pushrods 5 flats back to 2 turns and 3 flats. I'll ride it like that and see how it sounds. If it is noisy, I will go to 3 full turns which is about 0.125" and see how that does.

Hope I don't do all this and get right back to where I am now, but it is an interesting experiment! Will let you all know how it goes.

TQ

 

[BUBBIE]

TQ1,

On my post #9, I mentioned My changing ONE of the pushrods back to standard 2.5 turns...
I have also read many mechanics doing What it takes to Quiet the lifter to valve issues... And 3.+ a couple was where they were also.

I plan an apart and together again soon,,, so I look forward to Hearing Your results... Not knowing what cams you have but in my 96" 2009 FLHR I added SE255's, Noise and Loud tapping was noted when cold and never fully went away until the suggested setting. So I used 3.3 From the 2.5 and the 3 and a few were needed to quiet them.. Really silenced them at the 3+ area...

What would be the problem IF they stay out in the More collapsed lifter position in the first place? Other than Floating open? ?

I have run mine for many miles this way and find no problems...

signed....BUBBIE

Don't Loose Your COUNT (smile)

 

[TQuentin1]

Not knowing what cams you have but in my 96" 2009 FLHR I added SE255's, Noise and Loud tapping was noted when cold and never fully went away until the suggested setting. So I used 3.3 From the 2.5 and the 3 and a few were needed to quiet them.. Really silenced them at the 3+ area...

I put the AP 21N cams in my UC when I did the roller-chain conversion. They are a fairly mild cam with more low end torque then OEM. Kick in pretty low (around 1700rpm), and are finished near 4000. So that is where I spend all my time.

I have not experienced any problems with the PR setting I have been using, but I am troubled by the fact that I firmly believed the piston travel in the lifters was 0.250". I can not find the source of that info anymore, and all my recent research shows 0.200" to be the travel. So let me walk back the PRs to about 0.100" out and see how they do. Will report back.

TQ

 

[R_W_B]

TQ try getting the manufactures phone number or email from who you bought them from. They should be able to give you the piston travel on them.

As long as you ride under 5800 rpms I would imagine you would be ok either way. Especially if you don't have any noise after you back them off.

Hydraulics too loose can muck up valvetrain parts over time, but too tight will sometimes give a high rpm float or pump up which can have catastrophic results. The latter is alleviated somewhat with stronger valve springs pulling the train back down soon enough at high rpm to open the check valve. But of course stronger springs wear out the cams quicker but I guess it's all about what kind of riding one is doing.

 

[TQuentin1]

TQ try getting the manufactures phone number or email from who you bought them from. They should be able to give you the piston travel on them.

The lifters I have in the engine are the stock HD "B"s. I have searched for a set of technical drawings of that lifter to no avail. I had disassembled my old lifters when I replaced them with these, but I do not know if the old ones were Bs or prior. I think I measured the piston travel in those, which is where I might have come up with the 0.250" total piston travel, but maybe not. Buggin' me tho'. See the pix here:

Harley Davidson Community - View Single Post - Lifter configuration

TQ

 

[R_W_B]

The lifters I have in the engine are the stock HD "B"s. I have searched for a set of technical drawings of that lifter to no avail. I had disassembled my old lifters when I replaced them with these, but I do not know if the old ones were Bs or prior. I think I measured the piston travel in those, which is where I might have come up with the 0.250" total piston travel, but maybe not. Buggin' me tho'. . . . . . TQ

Hmmm I searched around and could not find anything definitive but did find one guy that said the "B" lifters had a piston travel 1/8" or .125".

But then if you adjusted them 20 flats that would have taken all that up and you wouild not have been able to spin them after the bleed down. So not sure. (24 TPI so 1/24 = 0.041667 and that times 3 turns (18 flats) is 0.125)

I will try to find some more links on HD's specs.

 

[TQuentin1]

Hmmm I searched around and could not find anything definitive but did find one guy that said the "B" lifters had a piston travel 1/8" or .125".

The majority of the information I have found indicates that the total travel of the lifter piston is 0.200". The guy your were talking to may have meant that the adjustment should be 0.125", which is what I had thought would have been half way. But as I have been saying, I can not find any engineering info on the lifters that would show this definitively.

HDWrench measured four B lifters and provided the info above which tends to reinforce the 0.200" nominal spec. That is why I am going to back my pushrods off 5 flats and see how that does. If I get a bunch of noise, I will go to back out 3 flats to 0.125" and see what that does. Worse case: I end up back where I started!!

TQ

 

[R_W_B]

I tend to think you are right, 0.125 is just too little from all the other info I've also gathered. I did not go back and read the whole thread but they probably were talking about the preload adjustment rather than total plunger distance.

I found this from a guy which also reinforces what you said. From the jest of the discussion it seemed as though they were talking about ones they had disassembled and actually measured.
[. . . . . . . every TC -99B Lifter I've checked is between .215' and .217". ]

Really though I found (just as you said) there is a whole bunch of folks talking about preload but not a whole lot about the actual plunger travel.

I was so curious myself I emailed a local HD shop asked them if they could tell me the piston (plunger) travel distance on the HD 18538-99B hydraulic lifter ? I told them I was having some descrepancy in how much preload to take out.

They emailed back and said, quote " Unfortunately I am not certified to answer that question. However, I will ask our Master Tech to contact you later. In the meantime I recommend you set the preload to manual specs. " unquote

I somehow don't think I will hold my breath until I get that email. I think just what you said is best action. Next time you have them out you can just measure them.

In all my searching around I did find this bit of info I found interesting so I'll paste it up. Forgot exactly where, but I believe it was a commercial Indy Machine shop. I was saving stuff in text file as I went along.

[begin paste--
From 1999 - 2001, Johnson-Hylift supplied lifters to HD. Then in 2001, in a cost-savings move, HD used Delphi hydraulic lifters, which explains Harley's p/n change from 18538-99 to 18538-99A, and after some problems, a second Delphi lifter was used, p/n 18538-99B.

After some research AMS learned Delphi 18538-99B lifters bleed down rather quickly due to the current higher engine temps and heavy valve spring pressure found on most Harley Twin Cam's. The oil reservoir inside the lifter is too small, allowing the lifter to clatter, and likely causes many Twin-Cam bikes to be noisy.
--] end paste

Additionally I read that the part number has been upgraded to 18538-99C since it is now manufactured in Mexico.

I had earlier today also sent the below question to AutomotiveMachine.com which is a machine shop that does boring and rebuilds on HD, Kawa and Yamahas. I just got an email back from them.

----Question sent
Can you tell me what the plunger travel distance is for the HD 18538-99B hydraulic lifter ?

We were discussing just how much preload we could take out it and was
wondering what the actual plunger travel is ?

----reply back
I've measured a number of stock HD lifters made by Delphi and they vary widely.

IMHO, for any meaningful comparative testing of different adjustment procedures, your best bet is to measure each lifter.

What matters more than actual plunger position, is the resultant ball seat's position (the ball seat rides atop the plunger assembly) and how the pushrod tip contacts the ball seat.
---- End email

While the first part was interesting that there seems to be some deviation, honestly he lost me on the exactly what he's getting at with the ball seat ? Which in essense is the the top of the plunger. I'm just not sure what he's getting at there. Anyhow thought I would post it up.

 

[R_W_B]

I had also sent an email to Latus HD on this and today I actually got a return email from them on it.

[-Full piston travel on the "B" lifters is approx .200-.210". Preload
should be set at .100" or just half the total travel distance (this is
universal for H-D lifters). The thread pitch of the adjustable pushrod
dictates how many turns or flats are required to achieve the .100
preload, this varies based on maker. Regards, Mike -]