SE Pro Super Tuner + Smart Tune Software

[Hoople]

Yes, I read about the E10, but need to understand this more before I make more changes and run in open loop w/out my VE tables adjusted by Smart Tune.

It sounds like you already have a good handle on to what is going on. Here is a point that may help along the way. Remember that the O2 sensors don't actually look at a ratio of air & fuel. All they see is a "lack of" or "abundance of" oxygen molecules present in the exhaust stream. Even thought the O2 sensor only understands a ratio of 14.3 to 14.7 when using pure gasoline,,, it does not mean you could not use that same sensor in a pure E100 engine which is stoich at a ratio of 9:1.

Therefore as we push more alky (% wise) into the fuel,,, we push "stoich" on OUR scale from 14.5 to a lower number. E10 happens to be about a .3 of 1 ratio point to the lower side, meaning stoich for E10 is 14.2 based on using a pure gasoline scale. What all this means is the O2 sensor does not know or care what fuel you are using. While in closed loop mode, the O2 sensors will tell the ECM to mix a Stoich value (exhaust stream does not have too little or too much oxygen) regardless of how much alky you have in the fuel. But when in open loop, you have to manually push all your numbers .3 lower to get the results you really want because our scales are based on pure gasoline.

The real challenge to it all, is matching the desired air fuel ratio map to the actual air fuel ratio coming out the tail pipe during open loop mode and Smart tune can't do much for you with that.

Looking at your file, I was surprised they run closed loop at idle. Take a look at my base file (176AE106) and see that for idle I am open loop and fairly rich indeed. Down the road after you get comfortable, you may want to do the same for better cooling at idle. Do you see any real benefit to running closed loop during idle conditions? I think we have enough heat to deal with already.

 

[Grillfish]

Brutal: Yes, once I make my recorded Smart Tune enabled runs, I download the data, run Smart Tune on my VE tables and then save it to a new named map. I then reflash the ECM with Smart Tune enabled NOT checked but I always check enable Adaptive Fuel. Now if I want to do another recorded run, I'll reflash clicking both of those options and do the process all over.

Hoople: Thanks for the E10 info!

So once I'm done (happy) with my VE tables, if the base map had 13.9 in open loop, would you recomend me dropping that to 13.6 and see how it goes?

Regarding idle, thanks for the info! I'll power up my VCI and look at your map. Idle is in the 20MAP range, right? (still learning)

Regarding open loop, since I'm not on a dyno w/ AFR sniffer, I was using closed loop across the board when doing the Smart Tune recordings, hoping this would get some data to impact my VE numbers. Then when I go back to my origonal map with more open loop areas, the VE tables would be more accrurate and help in the calculation. Thoughts?

Also, I'm hearing it takes 3-4 full tank runs after I'm done with my Smart Tuning to see what the real results are as it takes time for the ECM to do some learning. Thoughts?

At this point, I have not touched timing as I do not have enough knowledge in that area. I may share my front/rear timing values once I'm done or if I experience pinging and look for advice.

Thanks again! This is realy fun stuff.

Todd

 

[Hoople]

I myself have not used the Smart Tune software. On a water cooled engine I believe closed loop (O2 feedback) is beneficial in many ways, but on my air cooled "96" I am old school and strictly go by look up tables only. I am Very happy with the mileage and performance I get. I am ok with highway low 40's and tight city mid 30's using E10. I am also 100% convinced that the Bikes, their owners and the factory were all happier back in the days of pre-stoich control.

I have never matched the VE tables to the A/F ratio tables on file 205TD004 but I have on file #176AE106. What I found was in most cells, the VE tables were low by at least a full 10%. That translates to a solid .8 of 1 ratio point on the A/F screen => to the lean side.
Now stop and realize what I am saying. I have a bone stock 2009 "96" and I loaded a Stage 1 176AE106 map to the ECM. With that alone, one would think my A/F ratio would have been fat. But when I measured the exhaust stream of an open loop cell (say WOT @ 100 map pressure at 3500 RPM),, which should have been 12.5 to 1,,, the actual exhaust stream was in the mid 13's. The same held true for open loop cells at idle (20 map). Chart said 13.3 but stream was closer to 14.0. It made no sense to me that I took a stock 96, loaded a Stage 1 map, increased most VE cells by 10%, and decreased all A/F ratios cells just to get real life numbers out the exhaust. And I crossed checked those numbers with 2 analyzers. You got me on that one.

I can not say the same would hold true for any file other than the one I used and tested, but as far as file 176AE106, both VE tables (especially the front) were pretty far off to the lean side.

I am curious to see how your Smart Tuning works out. Your blazing new trails because you got rid of your popping by making those cells richer, I would have thought the opposite. Nice going!.

 

[Brutal FXDX]

Bike at idle reads 25-35 kpa

 

[Hoople]

Bike at idle reads 25-35 kpa

You are correct,, 25-35 is idle. I really wish it was calibrated in in/mercury from years past because for me it would be so much easier to work with.

 

[Grillfish]

Thanks, Hoople and Brutal. Wow this is alot of information to digest.

I had an hour today from work (lunch break), so took another smart tune recorded run, downloaded the info, ran smart Tune, saved the file and just reflashed the bike back w/out Smart Tune enabled checked, but did check Reset Adaptive Fuel.

I've made 5 recorded runs and I'm going to run this set up for a week (maybe get 2 tankfuls) and see what happens.

When you mentioned that your VE tables were low by 10%, I was amazed. Someone else mentioned to increase all my VE tables by 5%. That might be the happy medium.

Thanks again and I'll keep posting some updates. May not be everyday, but will try to share what I'm finding.

Todd

 

[Hoople]

When you mentioned that your VE tables were low by 10%, I was amazed.

I probably should clarify that a little. I wanted my bike to really be tuned more close to what they were years back prior to O2 feedback (pre-'06),, or similar to a VERY clean carb engine. Or in other words something more along the lines of ~13.5 at idle,, 13.9 no load cruise,, and 12.5 under WOT conditions. Those are not terribly rich numbers but in order to get THOSE numbers I had to stack a 10% increase across most of the VE cells, have no A/F cells in closed loop, on Top of a Stage 1 base map. That combo on a factory pipe & air cleaner bike gave me those results.

I know this is a touchy subject for some. I understand that. I just wanted my bike to be pre-stoich like the old days. Yes I no longer get 54 mpg but I am certainly cleaner than any carb bike out there and probably cleaner than most pre-O2 scoots so I am OK with it. I just don't like the number 14 with an air cooled engine that must remain in motion to stay alive.

It would have been nice to see the maps that come from the factory, but as far as I know, you can not look at or copy those maps.

 

[Grillfish]

Makes sense Hoople. With my TFI, I ran open loop across the board and it was a nice balance of power, gas milage and cooling.

It will be interesting if I keep the AFR to what it is in my SEPST map (see above posts), increase the VE tables by 5% and running my closed loop bias at 762. If I'm not happy, I can always adjust the AFR out of closed loop to a more richer set up.

I agree about seeing the OEM maps, but even with TTS, you can only save it but not view it.

I'll keep you guys posted and have a great weekend! Nice riding weather!
Todd

 

[Hoople]

It will be interesting if I keep the AFR to what it is in my SEPST map (see above posts), increase the VE tables by 5% and running my closed loop bias at 762. If I'm not happy, I can always adjust the AFR out of closed loop to a more richer set up.

Absolutely! And the more you experiment with the numbers, the more you learn and the "mystery" of it all goes away. So many dyno tuners want you to think it is a science of Voo-Doo. I don't think anyone ever stops learning or ever knows it all, but having just a good handle on what's going on allows you to see through all the hype. To me having a good running bike is just a by product of it all. The real reward is the knowledge & understanding behind the theory.

Your next step (and I see it coming) is to buy yourself a portable wide band A/F ratio meter that you can strap to your bike in order to record and read A/F ratio's on the fly. An inertia dyno can't hold a candle to public roads when it come to tuning. That's a fact you can take to the bank.

 

[Grillfish]

Your next step (and I see it coming) is to buy yourself a portable wide band A/F ratio meter.

You read my mind. This morning I started to think about buying an AFR meter and started googling some, but no clue what works what doesn't or even how much they are.

Any suggestions?