start with 1 cylinder, then the other

[fabrozor]

thanks ;-)

 

[fabrozor]

Hi guys.

I still did not check the cylinders compression.
but ...
Today i unscrewed the rear spark-plug, put the spark-plug in contact with the cylinder, started the bike and looked for the electric spark.
Maybe i did wrong but i did not saw electric spark at the rear cylinder before few seconds. Then i saw electric spark.

From tomorrow i'll check again with a stroboscopic lamp pluged on the rear spark-plug cable, to be sure.

 

[Hoople]

Your kidding. That would be a very unusual thing to happen and not post any associated codes. Not totally impossible but awful unusual. I have been under the assumption your ECM has not logged any codes as of this time. Cross check it using a strobe light for extra supporting evidence.

 

[fabrozor]

I used the stroboscopic lamp today.

- this morning maybe i did not fix the connector well because i did not saw the spark for few seconds before it show up.

- this evening all was fine.
I'll test again tomorrow, i think all will be fine if i fix the connector well enough on the cable.

 

[fabrozor]

I tested again for 2 days, cold start (at cold engine temperature).

- The motor sound clearly reveal only one cylinder is running during few seconds, then comes the second cylinder.
- The pipe temperature reveal the front cylinder works, then few seconds later the rear starts to work.
- Stroboscopic lamp plugged on rear spark-plug cable lights up well since motor start.
- injectors were swapped, but the problem remain the same.

:newsmile040::newsmile016::newsmile061:

 

[RibEye]

I tested again for 2 days, cold start (at cold engine temperature).

- The motor sound clearly reveal only one cylinder is running during few seconds, then comes the second cylinder.
- The pipe temperature reveal the front cylinder works, then few seconds later the rear starts to work.
- Stroboscopic lamp plugged on rear spark-plug cable lights up well since motor start.
- injectors were swapped, but the problem remain the same.

:newsmile040::newsmile016::newsmile061:

Can it be tht there is something funny going on with the head temperature sensor, causing the ECM to come up, initially, in parade mode? that is the only mode I know, where only one cyclinder is dictated to run.


Spark is there. Only other choices are timing (not likely) and fuel (and maybe compression). Swapping the injectors did not move the issue. If it were injector wiring, I would think that intermittent connection would not manifest temperature sensitivity, rather, a sensitivity to vibration, and would happen intermittently, regardless of engine temp.

OK, injector not the issue, neither is the injector wiring, leaving us with fuel supply. One cylinder works reliably, and the other one works reliably once it comes on line, so it would not be a kink or blockage in the fuel rail, and the pump and regulator should be good.

Possibly the ECM is dictating the delayed fuel to the bad cylinder, for some reason (sensor input, or special service mode). No oxygen sensors in '05, so it would not be that.

One other reason fuel might not be getting into the cylinder is a bad hydraulic lifter, that leaks back down when not running and takes a bit to pump back up, like a bad brake master cylinder that must be pumped up before good operation at a stop.

Just thinking out loud...


Sorry. No time to read the whole thread...

You have already swapped the spark plugs, no?

Enjoy,
Rich P

 

[Jack Klarich]

I would run a compression test to be sure as Ribeye suggest the collapsed lifter may be the problem

 

[RibEye]

You could, in the absence of a compression tester, expose the push rods, put her in 5th gear and slowly spin the motor (on a lift by the rear wheel). Watch the movement of each pushrod, and make sure they move the same amount. If not, it is a bad lifter. You could also just spin the motor several times, by way of the rear wheel, enough to pump up a bad lifter, while cold. Then start the scooter. If she fires right up with both cylinders, again, it is a bad lifter. You may need the oil pump to pump up the lifter, but it should pump while spinning the motor.

Just thinking again...


Don't know enough about hydraulic lifter to be sure, but, do they all collapse when not running, and pump back up when starting? If so, the problem might not be one of the new lifters, but a restricted oil supply to the lifter, due to some obstruction introduced during the rebuild...

I guess you can tell I am intrigued...

Enjoy,
Rich P

 

[Hoople]

I tested again for 2 days, cold start (at cold engine temperature).

- The motor sound clearly reveal only one cylinder is running during few seconds, then comes the second cylinder.
- The pipe temperature reveal the front cylinder works, then few seconds later the rear starts to work.
- Stroboscopic lamp plugged on rear spark-plug cable lights up well since motor start.
- injectors were swapped, but the problem remain the same.

:newsmile040::newsmile016::newsmile061:

I do not understand what this means => "Stroboscopic lamp plugged on rear spark-plug cable lights up well since motor start"

1) Are you saying that you Have Seen & STILL continue to See the rear cylinder spark NOT fire for a FEW seconds on a cold engine start up?
2) You ABSOLUTELY do not have any stored Historical codes in your ECM. The ONLY code you have seen since the onset of this problem has been P1004. The P1004 was the only code you have seen, and it self repaired itself withOUT changing the system relay.
3) You HAVE swapped injectors and the injectors have NOT been swapped back to their original place. Leave the injectors swapped until the problem has been resolved.
4) The engine REAR cylinder still continues to show no spark for a short amount of time when the Engine is started cold.

If Yes, to ALL of the above questions, I would:
Unplug and inspect the low voltage 4 pin connector going to the coil. Be sure that the 4 pins are clean. Do NOT use anything like WD40 on any electrical connectors. Use Nyogel 760G (HD #99861-02). Removed BOTH high tension wires coming out of the coil and inspect the inside of the coil tower for corrosion or carbon tracking. Replace BOTH spark plug wires and spark plugs.
I would also unplug and inspect the large multi-pin connector going to the ECM. An unplug, inspection and re-seat of that connector is a Must at this point. Use Nyogel 760G.

What RibEye suggested "Can it be that there is something funny going on with the head temperature sensor, causing the ECM to come up, initially, in parade mode?" is Indeed a Very interesting point....

Combined with what was suggested by others, you will now be down to the few last few possibilities it can be. We can only assume the Delphi Ion sensing feature is turned ON since we do not have a SEST to check it for ourselves. Somehow this problem is escaping the DTC error logging software.

Based on answers to questions 1-4, it sure seems it is an electrical issue. At this point it can be either a primary or secondary issue. The Delphi Ion sensor system traps secondary issues. Primary issues are trapped (logged) from the firmware of the ECM. Secondary side of the coil error logging can be turned on & off from a menu in the SEST. "Primary" side of the coil error logging can NOT be turned On or Off and is always ON.

A new set of plugs and wires are not expensive and will eliminate a lot of possible issues. I would just change them (along with performing the other steps about connectors) and see what results you get.

 

[fabrozor]

Thank you Jack Klarich, RibEe, Hoople.

- The bad lifter could be an issue as i changed them during motor rebuild. I'll make the rear wheel test as you suggested.

I do not understand what this means => "Stroboscopic lamp plugged on rear spark-plug cable lights up well since motor start"

Forgive my weak english speaking skill. I meant i plugged the stroboscopic lamp connector on the rear spark plug cable. I started the engine. The stroboscopic lamp immediatly produced flashing light in the rythm of motor sound.

1) Are you saying that you Have Seen & STILL continue to See the rear cylinder spark NOT fire for a FEW seconds on a cold engine start up?

I mean the lamp, plugged on the rear sparkplug cable, flashes on cold engine startup. But. The rear cylinders seems to produce no explosion as the exhaust pipe remains cold more than 5 seconds compared to the front pipe.

2) You ABSOLUTELY do not have any stored Historical codes in your ECM. The ONLY code you have seen since the onset of this problem has been P1004. The P1004 was the only code you have seen, and it self repaired itself withOUT changing the system relay.

I add a P1004 but i deleted it.
I also saw antother code saying "no device" or something like that but i deleted it and it didn't came back. In my mind, if i delete it, it shall come back if the problem remains. Am i wrong ?

3) You HAVE swapped injectors and the injectors have NOT been swapped back to their original place. Leave the injectors swapped until the problem has been resolved.

I did not swap back the injectors to their original places.

4) The engine REAR cylinder still continues to show no spark for a short amount of time when the Engine is started cold.

I tested with the stroboscopic lamp. Do you want me to test again with the sparkplug unscrewed and put in contact with the cylinder to see if i see a blue spark ?

If Yes, to ALL of the above questions, I would:
Unplug and inspect the low voltage 4 pin connector going to the coil. Be sure that the 4 pins are clean. Do NOT use anything like WD40 on any electrical connectors. Use Nyogel 760G (HD #99861-02). Removed BOTH high tension wires coming out of the coil and inspect the inside of the coil tower for corrosion or carbon tracking. Replace BOTH spark plug wires and spark plugs.
I would also unplug and inspect the large multi-pin connector going to the ECM. An unplug, inspection and re-seat of that connector is a Must at this point. Use Nyogel 760G.

What RibEye suggested "Can it be that there is something funny going on with the head temperature sensor, causing the ECM to come up, initially, in parade mode?" is Indeed a Very interesting point....

What can i do to test the temperature sensor ?

Combined with what was suggested by others, you will now be down to the few last few possibilities it can be. We can only assume the Delphi Ion sensing feature is turned ON since we do not have a SEST to check it for ourselves. Somehow this problem is escaping the DTC error logging software.

Based on answers to questions 1-4, it sure seems it is an electrical issue. At this point it can be either a primary or secondary issue. The Delphi Ion sensor system traps secondary issues. Primary issues are trapped (logged) from the firmware of the ECM. Secondary side of the coil error logging can be turned on & off from a menu in the SEST. "Primary" side of the coil error logging can NOT be turned On or Off and is always ON.

I think i missanderstood something here.

A new set of plugs and wires are not expensive and will eliminate a lot of possible issues. I would just change them (along with performing the other steps about connectors) and see what results you get.

I changed the sparkplugs already.
I didn't change the wire.