Things I saw during my 20k maintenance

[dolt]

33pmg after this last trip. I changed from SE air filter to the KN filter and put in the quiet baffles. I expected a bit of a change from the baffles since I was restricting airflow but 33 is way too low on a stage 1, IMO.

You are right about mileage; a tuned Stage I TC88 should see 44-48 mpg depending on terrain and how it is ridden; tuned being the operative word. My brother gets 42-46 from his 95" with stock heads and SE203 cams. I get about 40 from my 95" with worked heads and TW44G cams but I ride a bit more aggressively than my brother does.

Regardless of what you do, I cannot over emphasize the importance of a dyno tune.:s

 

[Dan.1977P]

You are right about mileage; a tuned Stage I TC88 should see 44-48 mpg depending on terrain and how it is ridden; tuned being the operative word. My brother gets 42-46 from his 95" with stock heads and SE203 cams. I get about 40 from my 95" with worked heads and TW44G cams but I ride a bit more aggressively than my brother does.

Regardless of what you do, I cannot over emphasize the importance of a dyno tune.:s

I hear you. I'm just trying to wait until I've done the major things that would require a retune.

I've been talking with a guy at S&S just making sure I wouldn't have to do a ton of work to bolt in the new cams and he's really pushing the 551's over the 509's. Claims no need for new springs or rods until after the 585's. Also says I can get all the low end I want and not have to worry about porting the heads. With either set, it will be a massive difference in torque and the added HP will make sure I don't lose anything on the interstate. It's hard to pass up the extra 10lb/ft of torque of the 551 in the same config but I also don't have any personal experience with either so there may be a judgement call you have, Dolt, that I'm not seeing.

 

[dolt]

I hear you. I'm just trying to wait until I've done the major things that would require a retune.

I've been talking with a guy at S&S just making sure I wouldn't have to do a ton of work to bolt in the new cams and he's really pushing the 551's over the 509's. Claims no need for new springs or rods until after the 585's. Also says I can get all the low end I want and not have to worry about porting the heads. With either set, it will be a massive difference in torque and the added HP will make sure I don't lose anything on the interstate. It's hard to pass up the extra 10lb/ft of torque of the 551 in the same config but I also don't have any personal experience with either so there may be a judgement call you have, Dolt, that I'm not seeing.

Here's my take on the two cams. The 509 has an intake close of 18* vice the 551 with an intake close of 19*; not much difference there but the 509 does provide a bit more CCP which is what is needed with the small bore of the 88. The 551 does have more lift; .550" vice the .509" lift of the 509; however, your head flow goes flat at .500" lift so the additional lift of the 551 doesn't help. True that the intake valve stays open a bit longer so there may be some marginal gain from the lift.

One advantage the 551 does offer is that were you to increase displacement to 95" at some point in the future and have head work done, the 551 could be retained whereas the 509 should be replaced with a cam with more lift to take advantage of the improved head flow. So, I can't argue with the S&S guy but doubt that you will see an increase of 10TQ from the 551 over the 509.

The OEM beehive springs will work with cams up to .600" lift. True that you don't NEED adjustable pushrods with either cam since the base circle is the same as stock. However, it has been my experience that many times a bit more lifter preload is required with aftermarket cams to minimize valve train noise and you cannot set more preload with OEM pushrods. You could start with the OEM pushrods and if the valve train is quiet, no worries. However, if the valve train is noisy, you can cut out the OEM pushrods and install a set of adjustables. If you decide to try the OEM pushrods, make sure you pay attention to the lifters and pushrods when you remove them and replace the lifters and pushrods back in there respective locations; don't mix them up.

The 551s, according to S&S are designed for 96-106 motors and the 509s for the 88 motors. I think you would be happy with either cam and I won't try to sway you one way or another but would encourage you to go to the S&S cam guide and read what they say about the two cams before you pull the trigger.

SS Camshaft Overview Guide and cam specs

 

[Dan.1977P]

I was reading the dyno sheets he sent me. Ill attach them just in case I'm reading them wrong.

Now that you mention that I don't have the option of keeping the 509's if I do head work really compels me to go with the 551 and save up some cash for the winter when I can get the heads bored to 96". Just not sure if the gains of doing the head work will be worth it after I put the new cams in. I suspect that if I really do end up with 80lb/ft over the current 60lb/ft, I will be very happy and will only do the rest of the work because I enjoy working on these things.

Thanks for all your help. You're a great resource.

 

[dolt]

I was reading the dyno sheets he sent me. Ill attach them just in case I'm reading them wrong.

Now that you mention that I don't have the option of keeping the 509's if I do head work really compels me to go with the 551 and save up some cash for the winter when I can get the heads bored to 96". Just not sure if the gains of doing the head work will be worth it after I put the new cams in. I suspect that if I really do end up with 80lb/ft over the current 60lb/ft, I will be very happy and will only do the rest of the work because I enjoy working on these things.

The 509 run in the attached file looks pretty good; 70TQ/83HP. Compared to the Step 2 run with the 551 of 68TQ/82HP. However, you must note that the gain shown for the 509 cams cannot be attributed solely to the cams as the motor was also upgraded to Stage I. A more fair comparison would have been a stock power curve compared to a Stage I curve and a Stage I plus cam curve.

Do you know what was done in steps 3 and 4 in the 551 chart to increase power? It would be important to know what the motor configuration was for Steps 1-4.

The best reason I can see to run the 551 cams over the 509s is that you can retain the 551s in the future if/when you go to 95" and/or head work. But, of course if/when you go that route, there are a plethora of cams to choose from and many better than the 551. With the increase in displacement and head work, you should see 100+TQ and mid 90s HP with the 551 cams. You would have to decide if that increase would be worth the additional cost.

 

[Dan.1977P]

The 509 run in the attached file looks pretty good; 70TQ/83HP. Compared to the Step 2 run with the 551 of 68TQ/82HP. However, you must note that the gain shown for the 509 cams cannot be attributed solely to the cams as the motor was also upgraded to Stage I. A more fair comparison would have been a stock power curve compared to a Stage I curve and a Stage I plus cam curve.

Do you know what was done in steps 3 and 4 in the 551 chart to increase power? It would be important to know what the motor configuration was for Steps 1-4.

The best reason I can see to run the 551 cams over the 509s is that you can retain the 551s in the future if/when you go to 95" and/or head work. But, of course if/when you go that route, there are a plethora of cams to choose from and many better than the 551. With the increase in displacement and head work, you should see 100+TQ and mid 90s HP with the 551 cams. You would have to decide if that increase would be worth the additional cost.

This is Ken's response to my question about the steps: "The graphs are for a stock bike, using the 4 steps. Air cleaner, exhaust, cams, displacement/heads." That leads me to believe step 3 is stage 1 plus the cams. I don't think I'm getting anywhere near the 82 on step 2 because of the Big Radius pipes so I expect to see a big change if I can get the propipe and the cams and then get dyno'd.

 

[Dan.1977P]

Ok, I may be able to pull the trigger on the cams too, which would be awesome. Now I need a parts list:

1. 509/551 s&s cams. Kit has the cams, gaskets and cam bearings
2. Do I need an other bearings?
3. Replacement tensioner shoes
4. Adjustable pushrods will just make it easier and keep me from having to open the top end.
5. If I don't change the pistons to flat tops, I won't gain anything from increasing the head gasket to 0.030, right?

I want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row so I know the total cost of the cam change. Am I missing anything? May need the bearing tool if I can't rig something up to press those cam bearings into the case.

 

[dolt]

Ok, I may be able to pull the trigger on the cams too, which would be awesome. Now I need a parts list:

1. 509/551 s&s cams. Kit has the cams, gaskets and cam bearings
2. Do I need an other bearings?
3. Replacement tensioner shoes
4. Adjustable pushrods will just make it easier and keep me from having to open the top end.
5. If I don't change the pistons to flat tops, I won't gain anything from increasing the head gasket to 0.030, right?

I want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row so I know the total cost of the cam change. Am I missing anything? May need the bearing tool if I can't rig something up to press those cam bearings into the case.

1_2. If you are retaining the OEM cam plate or replacing it with the SE billet plate with the SE Hybrid conversion kit (25284-11), you will need both inner and outer cam bearings.

3. If you are retaining the OEM cam plate, you should replace the tensioner shoes with the CYCO shoes. If converting to the SE Hybrid kit, new hydro shoes will be included.

4. SE Quick Install Tapered pushrod kit is adequate; 18404-08.

5. The .030" head gasket will tighten squish and increase static CR by .25; compression = torque.

I have used an old cam to drive in the inner cam bearings. Freeze the bearings over night and liberally apply assembly lube to both the bearing and the bearing boss. The bearings go in with numbers facing out; the back side of the bearing race has a chamfer to facilitate starting the bearing into the bore straight; very important. Once you are sure the bearing is started into the bore straight, lightly tap it in flush with the face of the bearing bore.

The bearings can be removed with a blind hole puller and the right size collet; you can rent that tool from Auto Zone.

Or you can buy the R/R tool from Heartland for $95 plus shipping.:s

 

[Dan.1977P]

1_2. If you are retaining the OEM cam plate or replacing it with the SE billet plate with the SE Hybrid conversion kit (25284-11), you will need both inner and outer cam bearings.

3. If you are retaining the OEM cam plate, you should replace the tensioner shoes with the CYCO shoes. If converting to the SE Hybrid kit, new hydro shoes will be included.

4. SE Quick Install Tapered pushrod kit is adequate; 18404-08.

5. The .030" head gasket will tighten squish and increase static CR by .25; compression = torque.

I have used an old cam to drive in the inner cam bearings. Freeze the bearings over night and liberally apply assembly lube to both the bearing and the bearing boss. The bearings go in with numbers facing out; the back side of the bearing race has a chamfer to facilitate starting the bearing into the bore straight; very important. Once you are sure the bearing is started into the bore straight, lightly tap it in flush with the face of the bearing bore.

The bearings can be removed with a blind hole puller and the right size collet; you can rent that tool from Auto Zone.

Or you can buy the R/R tool from Heartland for $95 plus shipping.:s

I really think this is the last performance thing I will be doing in a long time in the engine so I'll stay with the OEM cam plate for now and replace just the shoes. Have a set on the way anyway. Just hate to pull the cam plate just to replace the inside shoe. May as well get some fun out of taking it apart again anyway.

Here is the kit I'm looking at. S&S 509 Cam Kit Can get it way cheaper than the price listed but it looks like it has inner and outer bearings. I was wondering about the bearing in the cam plate for the drive shaft.

I like those push rods better than the S&S ones. Look more stable and are a bit cheaper.

I may hold out on the head gasket until winter. I'm sure I will get in there and want to pull everything apart and inspect and clean thoroughly. Summer is here and I want to ride this thing.

 

[dolt]

I was wondering about the bearing in the cam plate for the drive shaft.

You are referring to the bronze bushing that the pinion shaft rides in. Unless your crank run out is really bad, that bushing should be fine. Slide the cam plate on to the pinion shaft and see if you can feel any movement at the pinion shaft. Replacing it is more complicated than just pressing the old one out and a new one. So, unless it appears worn or grooved, leave it alone.