FN Cheap Cam install

[CHZWIZ]

I installed the SE255 cam in my '07 Ultra.
Used the SE High Capacity lifters.
Used the Perfect Fit pushrods, only because I want to eliminate a needed adjustment if it happened on the road. The PF pushrods are lighter and stiffer.
Added the Zippers Dual Piston tensioners. They work nice. Also did a oil pump shim while in there.
New inner/outer cam bearing.
Power Commander 3 fuel management.

I see in the SE catalog the SE perfect fit PR's in stock length for the SE-255 cams. I'm wondering what the advantage is of installing them. The 110 CVO motors used the stock PR's that I have in my bike. The only difference I could find is the CVO motor had SE lifters. That's $120 for the SE PR's that could be used on say an upgraded lifter set. Doing some more research the SE catalog shows an upgraded valve spring set for the SE-255 cams. Sounds great to a tune of $150. Upon further research I find out that the stock springs are beehive style with a minimal lower lift spec than the SE beehives.

Seems to me that a lot of these upgraded parts are just ways for HD to upsell all their service work. They know that the majority of folks aren't going to spend the time researching the correct parts for their build and just let the service managers throw parts at you to see if you bite. This has been very informative and eye opening to research the parts they use in their stock motors for different applications.

So right now I am thinking new set of lifters, new inner cam bearing with install kit and then determine what to do with the cam plate and pump once I take it out. I'm still wondering about the bushings on the cam plate because on my year I think the holes for the cam and the pinion have bronze bushings. I would assume you are supposed to replace them with a cam change wouldn't you? If the pinion run out is on the high side this can ovalize the bush. It takes a special tool to remove and install the bush in a press and then you need another special reamer to size it for the pinion. You would be better off upgrading the cam plate if this is what you find. I know the Fueling plates are made of high strength aluminum where they eliminate the use of bushings. I guess I will have to figure it out once I get in there. Truly it would be nice to only have to buy the install kit and maybe a set of upgraded lifters. I see a lot of owners saying the stock B lifters are great so who knows if it is really necessary to replace those either. I mean where do you stop. You start a project like this and before you know it you are caught up in a parts avalanche.

As far as fuel management I think I am going to use the new V&H FP3 for my bike. Don't really want to rely on a tuner and doing dyno runs to dial in my bike. I think it is overkill. Maybe if you are doing a high end performance build, but just adding this cam set and my Rinehart true duels and S&S Stealth air cleaner doesn't justify spending a huge amount of money tuning. The new FP3 has a lot of features and a great price for everything it can do.

I appreciate all your comments, keep them coming, really like to hear everyone's opinion on the subject. Always trying to gain more knowledge on all subject pertaining to all of my interests.

Thanks CHZWIZ

 

[dolt]

Just want to clear up a couple of things in your last post.

The OEM cam plates from '07 up have a bronze bushing for the pinion shaft but the outer cam journals ride in the parent aluminum material of the cam plate.. It is very rare to have to replace the bronze pinion shaft bushing, even with excessive runout unless the crank is removed, trued and balanced. A new bronze pinion shaft bushing will maintain a true, round bore if the crank has excessive runout, so there is no benefit in replacing it. As previously posted, I have never been comfortable with performance cams running in the parent material of the cam plate; another bean counter idea from the MoCo. The early cam plates carried the outer cam journals in ball bearings, a much more robust setup. Having said that, there are plenty that disagree and run performance cams in the OEM cam plate. The SE pump/billet plate, PN 25282-11 provides bronze bushings for the outer cam journals. CHZWIZ would have to decide if the billet plate upgrade is worth while; if in the budget, a good upgrade.

The +.030" Perfect Fit pushrods would be my choice if not using adjustables as they would setIf using adjustables, the HD tapered adjustables, PN 18404-08 are as good as any and a complete kit with pushrods, O-rings, tubes and clips. A duplication of some of the items included in the FM cam install kit so might consider that when purchasing parts.

No way would I use SE lifter. The OEM "B" lifter is no longer available and the "C" lifter that replaced it is made in Mexico and the early iterations had issues with rollers and general quality issues; they should be replaced. The S&S standards are reasonably priced and fine for this application.

Upgraded and stiffer springs are not required for this upgrade. The only thing to gain from heavier springs is more valve train noise. Unless the OP is concerned about valve control at high rpms, like drag racing, they are not necessary. The stock beehive springs will accommodate lifts to .575" and some have run .600" lift cams in the stock beehives after checking for coil bind.

The FP3 tuner promises much but short on delivery. Using the FP3, locks you to the V&H library and their tech support, which, from what I understand is pretty good. By default the tech support has to be good but you are still locked in to V&H. All tunes come from V&H and all editing has to be done on your phone (tedious) and there is no way to receive a tune from the vendor of your engine kit or to merge in portions of another tune or anything like that. The Powervision by comparison is a full feature product with really nice tools for doing all those things.

The other big difference is the lack of wideband support for the FP3. You're stuck with narrow band tuning. The Powervision by comparison has a couple of different wide band add-on options, one of which is closed-loop.

Another good reason to avoid the FP3 is that most tuners will not try to tune with the FP3 because it is tedious and does not log data.

I have never understood the logic behind a motor upgrade intended to increase performance only to not realize the full potential of the upgrade by avoiding a proper dyno tune which is the most important component of the upgrade.

Install the cams, replace the inner cam bearings and lifters, use the pushrods of your choice and, if budget allows, replace the cam plate/pump with the SE Billet kit referenced above. Talk to your local dyno operator and find out what system he works with, get it and let him tune the motor. Those RH TDs will benefit from the tuning process.

Even Stage I motors should be dyno tuned, otherwise, TQ and HP are left on the table and possibly fuel efficiency.......

 

[CHZWIZ]

Just want to clear up a couple of things in your last post.

The OEM cam plates from '07 up have a bronze bushing for the pinion shaft but the outer cam journals ride in the parent aluminum material of the cam plate.. It is very rare to have to replace the bronze pinion shaft bushing, even with excessive runout unless the crank is removed, trued and balanced. A new bronze pinion shaft bushing will maintain a true, round bore if the crank has excessive runout, so there is no benefit in replacing it. As previously posted, I have never been comfortable with performance cams running in the parent material of the cam plate; another bean counter idea from the MoCo. The early cam plates carried the outer cam journals in ball bearings, a much more robust setup. Having said that, there are plenty that disagree and run performance cams in the OEM cam plate. The SE pump/billet plate, PN 25282-11 provides bronze bushings for the outer cam journals. CHZWIZ would have to decide if the billet plate upgrade is worth while; if in the budget, a good upgrade.

The +.030" Perfect Fit pushrods would be my choice if not using adjustables as they would setIf using adjustables, the HD tapered adjustables, PN 18404-08 are as good as any and a complete kit with pushrods, O-rings, tubes and clips. A duplication of some of the items included in the FM cam install kit so might consider that when purchasing parts.

No way would I use SE lifter. The OEM "B" lifter is no longer available and the "C" lifter that replaced it is made in Mexico and the early iterations had issues with rollers and general quality issues; they should be replaced. The S&S standards are reasonably priced and fine for this application.

Upgraded and stiffer springs are not required for this upgrade. The only thing to gain from heavier springs is more valve train noise. Unless the OP is concerned about valve control at high rpms, like drag racing, they are not necessary. The stock beehive springs will accommodate lifts to .575" and some have run .600" lift cams in the stock beehives after checking for coil bind.

The FP3 tuner promises

Dolt are the +.030 perfect fit rods the ones you used? The SE catalog shows that the SE-255 cams use the standard length perfect fit rod. How did you are you able to use the +.030?
I think if I upgrade the stock cam plate (if it is in good shape) with the RedShift tensioners and either the Axtell bypass valve or rebuild the stock one using the Baisley plunger and LMR-2 spring that should do the trick. Also found these beefy adjustable PR's from Zippers. They are not quick install but not a problem. And should be able to adjust the lash closer than with the perfect fit rods.
http://www.zippersperformance.com/4...8-diameter-145-wall-chrome-moly-pushrods.html
I think with these Zipper PR's and installing a set of S&S lifter travel limiters in my B-lifters should work and help with quieting the valve train and pump the lifters up faster. Also install a set of rocker blockers and if needed some Zippers rocker arm shims to tighten the rockers up. So with the parts/tools and install kit will be looking at $300 + $300 for the FM3. I think this is reasonable considering what a shop would charge to do this work.

Just want to clear up a couple of things in your last post.

The OEM cam plates from '07 up have a bronze bushing for the pinion shaft but the outer cam journals ride in the parent aluminum material of the cam plate.. It is very rare to have to replace the bronze pinion shaft bushing, even with excessive runout unless the crank is removed, trued and balanced. A new bronze pinion shaft bushing will maintain a true, round bore if the crank has excessive runout, so there is no benefit in replacing it. As previously posted, I have never been comfortable with performance cams running in the parent material of the cam plate; another bean counter idea from the MoCo. The early cam plates carried the outer cam journals in ball bearings, a much more robust setup. Having said that, there are plenty that disagree and run performance cams in the OEM cam plate. The SE pump/billet plate, PN 25282-11 provides bronze bushings for the outer cam journals. CHZWIZ would have to decide if the billet plate upgrade is worth while; if in the budget, a good upgrade.

The +.030" Perfect Fit pushrods would be my choice if not using adjustables as they would setIf using adjustables, the HD tapered adjustables, PN 18404-08 are as good as any and a complete kit with pushrods, O-rings, tubes and clips. A duplication of some of the items included in the FM cam install kit so might consider that when purchasing parts.

No way would I use SE lifter. The OEM "B" lifter is no longer available and the "C" lifter that replaced it is made in Mexico and the early iterations had issues with rollers and general quality issues; they should be replaced. The S&S standards are reasonably priced and fine for this application.

Upgraded and stiffer springs are not required for this upgrade. The only thing to gain from heavier springs is more valve train noise. Unless the OP is concerned about valve control at high rpms, like drag racing, they are not necessary. The stock beehive springs will accommodate lifts to .575" and some have run .600" lift cams in the stock beehives after checking for coil bind.

The FP3 tuner promises much but short on delivery. Using the FP3, locks you to the V&H library and their tech support, which, from what I understand is pretty good. By default the tech support has to be good but you are still locked in to V&H. All tunes come from V&H and all editing has to be done on your phone (tedious) and there is no way to receive a tune from the vendor of your engine kit or to merge in portions of another tune or anything like that. The Powervision by comparison is a full feature product with really nice tools for doing all those things.

The other big difference is the lack of wideband support for the FP3. You're stuck with narrow band tuning. The Powervision by comparison has a couple of different wide band add-on options, one of which is closed-loop.

Another good reason to avoid the FP3 is that most tuners will not try to tune with the FP3 because it is tedious and does not log data.

I have never understood the logic behind a motor upgrade intended to increase performance only to not realize the full potential of the upgrade by avoiding a proper dyno tune which is the most important component of the upgrade.

Install the cams, replace the inner cam bearings and lifters, use the pushrods of your choice and, if budget allows, replace the cam plate/pump with the SE Billet kit referenced above. Talk to your local dyno operator and find out what system he works with, get it and let him tune the motor. Those RH TDs will benefit from the tuning process.

Even Stage I motors should be dyno tuned, otherwise, TQ and HP are left on the table and possibly fuel efficiency.......

I will look into the power vision tuner. The FP3 does have an auto tune that seems to work great. I will do more research and buy the one that fits my needs.

Thanks for your input Dolt.

 

[dolt]

Dolt are the +.030 perfect fit rods the ones you used? The SE catalog shows that the SE-255 cams use the standard length perfect fit rod. How did you are you able to use the +.030?
I think if I upgrade the stock cam plate (if it is in good shape) with the RedShift tensioners and either the Axtell bypass valve or rebuild the stock one using the Baisley plunger and LMR-2 spring that should do the trick. Also found these beefy adjustable PR's from Zippers. They are not quick install but not a problem. And should be able to adjust the lash closer than with the perfect fit rods.
http://www.zippersperformance.com/4...8-diameter-145-wall-chrome-moly-pushrods.html
I think with these Zipper PR's and installing a set of S&S lifter travel limiters in my B-lifters should work and help with quieting the valve train and pump the lifters up faster. Also install a set of rocker blockers and if needed some Zippers rocker arm shims to tighten the rockers up. So with the parts/tools and install kit will be looking at $300 + $300 for the FM3. I think this is reasonable considering what a shop would charge to do this work.

I use adjustable push rods; the SE quick install tapered per the PN in my previous post. Don't know why anyone would use anything other than a quick install pushrod if using adjustables. You will agree with me after adjusting the other type. I suggested the +.030" Perfect Fit should you choose to use to use a fixed length pushrod as it will set the lifter preload at about .130" instead of .100" with the stock length pushrod which should be enough to keep the valve train tight and would eliminate the need for adjustment. Just a suggestion; of course your call on the pushrods. Fixed length pushrods at .130" or adjustables at.130"; same, same.

I got the model years mixed up; thought your bike was the '13 but just re-read your OP and realized yours is the '09. If your "B" lifters have less than 35K miles on them, use them but avoid travel limiters. You don't need them and they are tricky to adjust. The Zippers tensioners are nice hardware; you don't need them but they are an upgrade. Pay attention to the chain rotation and install the chains so they are rotating in the same direction as they were when removed. The leading edges of the chain have been "polished" but the trailing edges have not. Not a major thing but just a tip.

Don't waste your time shimming the rocker arms unless end play is .025" or greater. Have never seen shimming down to quiet valve train. Rocker Lockers will work if the rocker shaft is rotating in the support; if it is, there will be witness marks.

You don't need the Baisley spring or the Axtell Bypass. The Baisley spring was designed to boost idle and low rpm oil pressure in the early TC88 motors. The stock '09 oil pump is more than adequate for the job. There are lots of parts available from HD and the aftermarket to solve problems that don't exist. The Axtell Bypass was a hit when it was first introduced; nobody talks about it much any more but, again, not a feature you need for a cam only upgrade. Adding unnecessary parts to a project on a tractor motor that has had basic changes in 100 years often causes problems that would otherwise have been avoided. Like it is said, this is not rocket science, particularly when it comes to the HD vtwin motor.

The FP3 auto tune feature is limited to narrow band; there really is no such thing as "auto tune" and any auto tune is no substitute for proper dyno tune. You will play around with it until you think you have a good tune but get it on a dyno with the Powervision and you will see improvement. If your needs are to optimize the time and cost of your upgraded, go with the Powervision and a dyno tune; don't let an HD dealer tune though.

 

[CHZWIZ]

So really to keep it simple I could buy the perfect fit +.030 rods, install kit, the zippers tensioners (optional) and call it a day. That would save lots of money that could go to purchasing a nice tuner.

I new I would get some answers on this forum. Thanks for that Dolt.

My 103 has 9.6:1 CR. How much would you think these cams will increase the compression?

Can you reuse the came drive retention bolts and washers? How likely is that I would need to use an alignment spacer for the cam drive sprocket? Also buy a new retaining ring if it's not in the fuel moto kit. Correct?

 

[dolt]

Your "keep it simple" plan works but you can keep it even simpler. Reuse the stock pushrods; there is only .002" difference in the base circle diameter between the stock 103 cams and the 255s which means there is only .001" difference in the valve train stack up height. Run the stock pushrods as many do, if the valve train is noisy, cut them out and replace with the SE adjustables. Why spend the money for new pushrods when you may not need them. Your call though.

Your static CR won't change but you will see a small bump in CCP; from about 190psi to 190psi. IIRC, the '09 models came with ACRs but were not wired up. In order to use them you would need the wiring harness and have a dealer activate them. If you get some hot start resistance, that would be a worthwhile upgrade. I have not installed the harness but, from what I understand, the install is not difficult. You may be able to activate them with the Power Vision, not sure. If not, a dealer can; might consider having a dealer install the harness and activate; your call should you find you need them.

The main benefit from the 255 cams is the .050" increased valve lift. The 255s are not a HP cam but a TQ cam.

You can reuse the cam drive retention bolts. The are only torqued to 25# and 35#, so you can put the trans in first gear, lock the rear brake and R/R those bolts; no need for the cam locking tool. You won't know if you will need the alignment spacer until you install the cams. Best to purchase the spacer kit so you will have the one you may need on hand. Or, if you are not in a hurry, install the cams and if you need a spacer, take a run to the nearest local dealer, hope they have it on hand and buy the one you need.

Definitely buy a new snap ring for the front cam and be sure to install in properly. Good luck with the project.

 

[CHZWIZ]

Found this service bulletin online for a SE pro TC 103
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/61340stage II kit.
This confirms the use of the perfect fit +.030. So it looks like a kit for the 96 that changes out the pistons/cylinders/cams retaining the stock heads. If I'm correct then those pushrods should work fine. The problem I'm having is this service bulletin contradicts the info that HD has on a spec sheet for the PF pushrods and all SE cams and head combinations. On that sheet it shows standard length pushrods for my application. So Dolt you are positive that there is no problems having the preload .030 over stock? Like the idea of setting to a closer tolerance than the stock pushrods, should quiet the valvetrain a bit.

Your "keep it simple" plan works but you can keep it even simpler. Reuse the stock pushrods; there is only .002" difference in the base circle diameter between the stock 103 cams and the 255s which means there is only .001" difference in the valve train stack up height. Run the stock pushrods as many do, if the valve train is noisy, cut them out and replace with the SE adjustables. Why spend the money for new pushrods when you may not need them. Your call though.

Your static CR won't change but you will see a small bump in CCP; from about 190psi to 190psi. IIRC, the '09 models came with ACRs but were not wired up. In order to use them you would need the wiring harness and have a dealer activate them. If you get some hot start resistance, that would be a worthwhile upgrade. I have not installed the harness but, from what I understand, the install is not difficult. You may be able to activate them with the Power Vision, not sure. If not, a dealer can; might consider having a dealer install the harness and activate; your call should you find you need them.

The main benefit from the 255 cams is the .050" increased valve lift. The 255s are not a HP cam but a TQ cam.

You can reuse the cam drive retention bolts. The are only torqued to 25# and 35#, so you can put the trans in first gear, lock the rear brake and R/R those bolts; no need for the cam locking tool. You won't know if you will need the alignment spacer until you install the cams. Best to purchase the spacer kit so you will have the one you may need on hand. Or, if you are not in a hurry, install the cams and if you need a spacer, take a run to the nearest local dealer, hope they have it on hand and buy the one you need.

Definitely buy a new snap ring for the front cam and be sure to install in properly. Good luck with the project.

I have the Police electra glide with the 103 and I'm pretty sure it has the ACR's wired up and activated.

 

[dolt]

I have the Police electra glide with the 103 and I'm pretty sure it has the ACR's wired up and activated.

Good news; they will come in handy on hot restarts.

There is no problem, as you have proven to yourself, using the +.030" pushrods for your application. I don't know the base circle diameter of the stock cams in the 96" motor; could be a smaller base circle which would require longer pushrods. HD would not recommend +.030" pushrods for your application because the stock pushrods will work. The only reason for the longer pushrods, as you know by now, is to put more preload on the lifter to remove lash from the valve train and the associated noise. My point is that the valve train maybe quiet using the stock pushrods but if not, it is quite a simple operation to remove them and install a set of adjustables. If you prefer to spend the $$ and install the longer pushrods, that is your call; I don't make those kinds of decisions for forum members. I inform and members decide........

 

[CHZWIZ]

Good news; they will come in handy on hot restarts.

There is no problem, as you have proven to yourself, using the +.030" pushrods for your application. I don't know the base circle diameter of the stock cams in the 96" motor; could be a smaller base circle which would require longer pushrods. HD would not recommend +.030" pushrods for your application because the stock pushrods will work. The only reason for the longer pushrods, as you know by now, is to put more preload on the lifter to remove lash from the valve train and the associated noise. My point is that the valve train maybe quiet using the stock pushrods but if not, it is quite a simple operation to remove them and install a set of adjustables. If you prefer to spend the $$ and install the longer pushrods, that is your call; I don't make those kinds of decisions for forum members. I inform and members decide........

Everything that I have read is that the only difference between the 96 and 103 is the bore and a very minimal de-stroking . All other internals are ditto. I guess they were trying to square it up a bit. My Police supplement lists the torque as 102 ft-lbs @ 2500 rpm's. Will be very interesting to see the torque figures with the SE-255's installed.

I guess I could compare the base circle measurements of both cams once I pull the stock ones out and then go from there. I really do like the idea of using the perfect fit +.030, install the PR's torque down the rocker and forget. I'm not one to constantly fiddle, do it once the way I want and that is it, button it up and enjoy. I do understand the advantage of the adjustable rods but really shouldn't have to get in the cam chest that often to be that big of a deal.

 

[dolt]

The only difference between the 96" and 103" motors is the bore diameter; same stroke.

The RH true duals are not know for making torque but I would expect 110-115TQ and mid 90s HP as the 255 cams are not known to make HP. Numbers will all depend on tune which is why I have emphasized the importance a good fuel management system and a proper tune. There are lots of options for 120/125 numbers should you ever decide to open up the wallet but this upgrade should register on the butt dyno while not being a barn burner.

Understand the desire to used fixed length pushrods and the logic; good luck.